Episode 4: Mark Fleischer and Pittsburgh Civic Light Opera
Lacey: [00:00:00] Here I am today with Mark Fleischer of the PC L O that's the Pittsburgh Civic Light Opera for those of you who are not familiar with that acronym. I'm so excited to talk to you. Thank you so much, Mark. This is great. This is like a little post Christmas treat here. We are on the Monday between Christmas and New Year's recording this.
So thank you. I would love to start just talking generally about the PCLO, its mission, your mission, what your community is like, how you serve your community.
Mark: [00:00:28] Of course. So the way we view the mission of Pittsburgh CLO is the celebration of musical theater, both from new to making sure the classics are around, but also moving forward and also launching careers and nurturing homegrown talent. CLO was founded in 1946 as a response to the end of world war II.
When our city fathers said, what do we need to make people feel good as the community bring the community together? We need light opera. So at the time it was Naughty Marietta, No, No Nanette and Gilbert and Sullivan done under the stars at Pitt stadium that eventually emerged as its grown, where we celebrate our 75th anniversary in the coming year
thank you. We hope we get to celebrate it's in the we'd like to that is emergent to an organization that is not just Pittsburgh but Western Pennsylvania and national including programs we can talk about from the CLO Academy of Musical Theater which is a training program, afterschool and weekend training program for students from preschool, promising preschoolers, as we it up through the professional development program which are the students the high school students who say they want to do this for a living and in between there's all sorts of things from the PNC children's school to New Horizons which is a musical theater training program for people, adults and students, with physical and mental disabilities There's a touring program called Gallery of Heroes which takes fully cast non-equity musicals into schools, does about 110 performances a year. Usually those are shows that are about 50 minutes fully costume full sets about a hero, began initially as Pittsburgh based heroes Young George Washington, Roberto Clemente and now has expanded to larger themes like Galileo. We actually just commissioned non B Kelly to write a show about John Lewis That would also include things about civics and voters' rights et cetera. Out of that we also have the CLO Cabaret, which is a 250 seat space that does mostly smaller musicals. It was initially open to give the CLO a year round presence in the cultural district of Pittsburgh and did shows you expected. As I joke we've done every show with a boy platter or nun that you expect us to have done. Around A few years into that after you know it's now going to be in it's 20 something year they decided that we wanted to help with the next generation of musicals. So we made a commitment and they raised a capital fund to do new works which is what brought me in from my previous employer up in the Adirondacks to launch a new works program for small musicals, musicals five actors or fewer, recognizing that we needed them as much as anyone. And I'm proud that we launched from that the Spark Festival of new small musicals which is I think developed over 15 new shows plus four world premiers. In addition to that we do a production of A Musical Christmas Carol every year we've done it for 28 years that show was probably the hardest thing to deal with in the midst of this shutdown that it wouldn't have its 29th year. And we were very excited to strike a partnership with WQED our PBS affiliate And we actually edited an archival video, two camera archival shot, we had the Richard Thomas production from 18 and they actually broadcast it three times on their network as well as streamed it so that students 7,000 Yeah 7,000 school children see Christmas Carol each year and many Pittsburghers can track their first live theater experience to that show. So the idea of not doing it was really hard. The other programs that are very important to us is the Kelly Awards, CLO created the Gene Kelly awards which was the first program to recognize high school students and treat it at an award ceremony which has now expanded to include all across the country the Ben Vereens the Tommy Tunes the Gershwins which then led us to start the Jimmy Awards in New York, CLO is one that started the Jimmy Awards and the National High School Musical Theater Awards was started by Pittsburgh, in collaboration with theNeederlanders
Now it has become a full program of the Broadway League. And so many people have gone through that. So it's a very multi-faceted organization,
sorry. As I wandered through it.
Lacey: [00:04:15] amazing. No, it's amazing to hear all of the various arms of the organization and especially for people who are not Pittsburgh or Western Pennsylvania base, maybe really unaware of, of some of the things that you do in the community.
Mark: [00:04:28] Yeah. And I would say again at the heart of it still remains the summer season, which is what we were started with, which is a six show summer season one, one of the few summer stocks left. We still do eight day stock at the Bennett, which is a 2800seat house. It's sort of a, an amazing commitment of the celebration of musical theater, the preservation of what it was, and looking to the future of what it can be and how we can nurture that here in the environment of Pittsburgh and send it out into the world.
Lacey: [00:04:51] How many people do you serve? I don't know whether that would be audience members or also people who participate in all of your educational programs or both, but, you know, to get a sense of the breadth of what you do in the area do have a guess.
Mark: [00:05:04] I don't know if I have a true number. I mean, I know we we have like 15,000 subscribers for the summer season. The education programs from what the school is, is almost 900 classes a semester, if you count individuals taking individual classes. Then you have 110 schools that are served by Gallery of Heroes. It gets up in the couple hundred thousand or more just on the Pittsburgh based programs
Lacey: [00:05:26] Right. That's amazing. Let's look at 2020 then. What was what was happening? What were the first things that you needed to deal with as you, you know, decided you had to shut down
Mark: [00:05:37] I was in New York the weekend before the shutdown auditioning shows for the summer season, we had already had summer season ensemble. I had made calls out to a lot of young people offering them to their first jobs. We were, I think I was in New York casting Guys and Dolls, and one other show. I remember being in the audition rooms in New York you know not shaking hands or wondering why am I touching my face so much. It was sort of a we knew something was coming but we thought we'd be able to you know I flew back and then we had decided that we were going to do a dry run. Can everyone work from home on Tuesday, said let's all go home and see if the tech will work, take your laptops. Well we never got to Tuesday.
We were in the midst of prepping for the summer season that would've gone in rehearsal in May. The Cabaret closed the show on the eighth which was Book of Merman. We were going to go into rehearsal for Untitled, A New Musical About Serious Drama by Matt Schatz, which was a world premiere.
And this is a show I have to say, has been in development for two years. The show had been cast the show had been through workshops. We were in the middle of orchestrations and I had to call and cancel that. Then the school had to stop classes in person. I am incredibly proud to say that the Academy was online with virtual classes within four to five days. Partly because we recognized the disruption that was going to happen in the lives of young people. And we decided that that was our first priority as an organization was taking care of these young people.
And then, and then it was also interesting. The semester was going to end and parents asked us to extend it. So we extended the semester four weeks. Our commitment was really trying to take care of these students. So that was sort of our first priority.
As it stretched on, I was running all sorts of models, you know, would we get to do the summer season? When were we going to make the call? And we made the call for summer season to be canceled, I think in April, partly because we were starting like many as a summer season to start racking up expenses, you know, paying people, rent, rehearsal studios and had spent about $2 million on the summer season already.
So we canceled that and that was sort of the hardest day of my life. I called almost every actor personally, to talk to them in the ensemble to let them know what was going on, why we'd made the decision, really was a tough 24 to 48 hours.
I wanted them to hear it before it hit a press release. I got to most of them. I signed up to be a producer, not a canceler. And the of the hardest thing to do.
Lacey: [00:07:57] you became canceler in chief
Mark: [00:07:59] look, and everyone knew it was coming, but knowing as you do , actors are colleagues and friends and designers are colleagues and friends and directors and faculty members, and, and to watch jobs dry up. , just dry up overnight. And to be a part of that news, being that messenger was just really tough, but it was the right thing.
I mean, look, the theater is, you know, was the first to shut down and will probably be the last to fully reopen. I mean, I feel for waiters and I feel for service industry, but I feel like the entertainment industry continually is left out of that list of people. And I think it still goes back to the arts jobs are real jobs, you know, kind of thing, but
Lacey: [00:08:35] I know what you
Mark: [00:08:36] So that was, you know, sort of the initial we didn't move except for the classes to anything online.
And we took a long time. There were people that were pushing us to try to do something virtual well what are we gonna do virtual? We have a challenge as I'm sure many of your listeners know is we do musicals. We don't do straight plays. So the technology was not there.
Lacey: [00:08:54] No, it does not
Mark: [00:08:55] We made a commitment much like we did to stay connected to our students. We decided we needed to stay connected to our patrons and audiences. So I launched along with Olivia Connor, who's our Manager of New Works. We launched two talk shows, which we put under the banner of Closeup, which is actually the name of our newsletter.
. So Olivia took on talking to writers of new works. So went through every writer we had and I did sort of a cocktails and conversation with alumni, someone like Patrick Page or Paige Davis or Richard Thomas or Clay Aiken, Beth Level . Then I would interview a local performer and then we would do a throwback Thursday, like a archival sizzle reel of a past show. And I watched our staff figure out how to use Stream Yard. I mean, I, I have to say the innovation, not just our staff, but I know of every theater to learn new technology, to create something new, to find a way to connect with the audiences has been really one of the most amazing things to witness .
So we just decided that we would talk to our people and give access to these artists and, you know, and, and we had great viewership the Clay Aiken one had 5,000 people have watched that interview, so we did that through most of the year,
and then when the Black Lives Matter movement really became vocal and We See You White American Theater, we actually took a break from the show to really reevaluate what we thought the show should be. Did the world want to see a cocktail conversation with performers? So we took a step back. We combined the show into one episode Olivia and I started co-hosting, but we brought on some people to really talk about the movement.
We tried to dig a little deeper and find a way to kind of balance the, the moment we were in and the conversation as well as the local performers. So that was sort of the initial steps was how to stay in touch with our patrons, our audiences, and our artists.
And what did we need to do in the administration side? You know, the summer season was a revenue loss of over $6 million out of a $12 million organization and 75% of our income comes from that.
We were trying to find ways to make sure the organization got to the other side.
I have an amazing board of directors. They created a COVID response task force that Van Kaplan, our CEO met with, they met every day. We discussed, you know, what we're gonna do about PPP loans what were we going to do about furloughs?
We did furlough some people. How are we going to navigate? Because at the end of the day, as afriend said, smaller is better than closed. And we tried to figure out how to.
Lacey: [00:11:17] That is words to live by in this era.
Mark: [00:11:18] Yeah. I mean, I think we tried to do what we could. We knew we couldn't do the real thing. And then as we said, as we came up on Christmas Carol, how are we going to do Christmas Carol? And we luckily found this partnership with QED.
I spent some time trying to figure out how to put money in some artists pockets. We created some funny ideas. We had Theater Grams and we picked five or six artists who, if you want them to sing a song and send it out to your loved ones for holiday gifts, we had a list on the website. One of my staff members started an online store for us of merchandise.
You know, we're just trying to find different ways to keep ourselves relevant. And there. We created more education programs that were online. We've all laughed that we'd never worked so hard, not producing shows.
Lacey: [00:11:57] Well it's because you're doing everything is a new medium, as you said,
Mark: [00:12:02] We had tried to look at, there was a way to do solo cabaret acts at country clubs, and we were moving forward with that, and then we had another shutdown so we had to stop that. I was on a call, it might've been Ken Gash from NYU said, you know, you have two choices. Are you going to become a booking agent for artists? Are you gonna become a media company? And it was an interesting question that we all started to become media companies and it's not our expertise.
And so I've, I've watched colleagues do, you know, streaming shows and we've moved into a few of those, but I started thinking maybe it's about booking artists. Like how can I get an artist, I was trying to find ways to do... like I said, these theater grams, or could we send them out to carol, but you know, then we had a surge and we didn't do that, but that's been sort of, my new approach is how can I get artists back and engage?
And how can we put artists at the center of this recovery as part of what we do. We've had a board retreat, you know, who are we on the other side of this? We're not going back. There's no, it's not going back to normal. It's going to the new normal, the next normal,
Lacey: [00:12:54] Well, I want to hear what you think that is. If you have any, you know, I know you don't have a crystal ball as none of us do. But you just said so many things there that I just want to go back for a second and kind of look at a little bit, I love that you said putting artists at the center of recovery, that's been the realization that you've had as you try to navigate this.
I feel like there must be a connection between that, and you want to retain your patrons interest and patronage, frankly. Right. So do, do you see a connection between those two things and, and how were the, the online conversations that you had? How, how do you think they were received by people?
Mark: [00:13:35] I think episodes were dependent on if they were like, we knew the numbers were up if I had a Clay Aiken or Beth Level, or Patrick Page, I did a few episodes that were more, some younger working actors, like Amad Simmons who was in Hadestown . So we have the quantitative numbers, which we watch and the videos are getting over a thousand views.
And really, I've also found that you've probably know artists are also trying to be out front and be seen. So the video show is something that we've now moved to doing it every two weeks. Lifestyles have changed. I think when we first hit the shutdown everyone was like, what's going on like this, it was sort of this terror and excitement at the same time.
And we were all living on a computer. Zoom was new to us. You know, we were watching video conversations. I was watching Seth Rudetsky's show every day and it was on the background. And now I think it's changed, you know?
And I think one of the questions that you've asked, like, is this what we do now? Like is this show part of who we are going forward? And I, I think it is.
One of the projects we're working on now actually to change the show . I came up with the idea of what Olivia refers to as micro commissions, which is I wanted to put some money in artist pockets from our new works budget.
So we went and solicited 5 writing teams who'd worked with us before. Either solo or teams and said we're about to hit New Year's Eve. I would want to commission a song from you that either looks back on 2020, looks ahead to 2021 or both. And so these five songwriters are writing that. From there, they're also orchestrating and making tracks.
And then I said, well, let's identify singer. So we've all identified a singer, either local or somebody knows CLO connected. From there. It will be passed to a choreographer who will then choreograph a piece with a dance. And from there, it will be edited into a video with all respect to Jason Robert Brown, referring to it as Songs For A New Year.
And , we're gonna use the show to release these. It's become a way for me to sort of get back to some artists, to have them give context. And it's really been amazing. I mean, the draft I've heard of songs are so unique and so different and allow me to be in conversations that artists about the art, not about where their next paycheck.
I mean, it's modest money. But it's something and I'm really hoping these songs will live. And we've talked about other ideas to move out from this. Like, as we move forward, we've been laughing about a blind date idea, like, do we have people put their name in a hat and we pull out a composer and lyricist and go go! It's also an opportunity for us to get to know some artists, we don't know this, this round was artists we knew. And I'm like, well, maybe next time it's about artists.
Lacey: [00:15:50] And then it becomes a pandemic song cycle in the
Mark: [00:15:53] Right? And maybe you present it. The other one that I forgot to mention that Olivia came up with, which is the Google Doc Musical. So Olivia did polls on Facebook, titles, characters, ideas, took polls, people permitted, and they came up with Jagoff The Musical a Pittsburgh phrase that we use about a jerk, "you jagoff."
Lacey: [00:16:13] I don't know why. I know that. My father used to say that for some reason he's not from Pennsylvania,
Mark: [00:16:19] they came up with Jag Off The Musical they had people signed up. They said, Olivia, they were interested in writing. She created a Google doc, you were given access. And they literally wrote on a Google doc in real time. So you could either go on and watch someone write the musical. If something was happening that day, you could contribute a line, you could contribute a song . And it was just like people would add on
and so they, they did that. They finished it. Then she asked for composers and she sent the songs to the composers and they created tracks. And now this show lives on our website. If you wanted to download it with tracks to do it as a show at your home
Lacey: [00:16:52] yeah, we'll put that in the show
Mark: [00:16:54] One of the things we wanted to do was figure out again, where's the creativity in this. We could choose to shut down hibernate and wait it out. And in some ways we have no choice. We are doing that with productions, but we're creating, and it was great because anyone could sign up to be this.
We had actors who wrote lyrics for the first time, a couple of teenagers, and we're hoping to do a Google Doc Musical 2.0 at some point.
So we're finding ways to get some content out to people. For us, the creativity has kind of gotten smaller and a way to meet new people like Google Doc and Songs For a New Year, and the talk show.
While at the same time, trying to figure out how we can do a summer season and when we're going to do it. You know, our challenges is going to be the when do we have to flip the switch on move forward and spend money and then be in, usually we're, we're having auditions in January. So we're, we're, we're talking a lot of different options and what will be. So, so back to your, your initial comment about the artists at the center is important to me that we keep those connections because this is what we do. .
It's been an interesting question about the streaming side, right? Because here's the challenge. Like I paid 20 bucks for Netflix and I can watch everything anytime I want, but do I pay $20 to watch a play done on zoom? No one's found a way to really, truly monetize or make that next connection that I've heard from.
So what makes it different? You know, and now the other one that's been discussed I'm with friends is like, do we need to go back and say the show is at 7:00 PM on Thursday because going to the theater is that, or are we going to move to a world because we are in a streaming world? No, no, no, no. Here's the show.
Watch it whenever you want. Right.
And so I'm really trying to figure out where this next step will go, but we've been a specific time, specific place, a group of people sharing the same air with the lights turned out on them, having a communal experience.
I guess that'll be the big question is what sticks, you know , like I said, is our talk show now a regular thing , the other thing I hope will stick has been the partnerships, watching organizations work together in different ways.
Us with QED, for example. There was a really great partnership in Pittsburgh between City Theater and Point Park University they commissioned 10 minute plays about the pandemic or what the experience has been in the pandemic. And then they put them together in video and they've, you know, we've had great conversations with other organizations.
How do we work together in different ways? And I think that's, it goes back again, we're not going to come out of this the same. Funders have told us they want to fix equity in funding to BIPOC organizations. Part of, part of my thing has been not just about mission, but what is our just cause as an arts group, So I've kind of left mission beside and like, what is it we do?, You know, it's hard, we've watched food lines get bigger. We've watched people know people are dying and we want to do musicals. So where is that role? Or we've watched the protest in the street, over George Floyd and, and his murder. Where's the next step for us. I've been doing a lot of thinking about that, although we've been talking about how to reimagine our organization and I thought, I thought I'd have time to like, you know, reimagine, but we've been working, you know, raising like our only income right now is fundraising.
And it's been fascinating to watch people still support us , I believe in the future, but we have had a lot of conversations about what will be the next step for CLO. And what will that be in terms of diversity? What will that be in terms of younger audiences or if our demographic as an arts form, as an industry is the demographic that's most at risk, right?
So
Lacey: [00:20:01] they going to come back? Even when they technically can?
Mark: [00:20:04] , it's funny, we've had some great conversations with license houses about, you know, and the unions. Can we live stream? I think we're going to have to be much more flexible. So we've been talking a lot about going forward. What does having calling it the COVID guarantee or the pandemic promise?
Like, what is that now? Because I think there's two levels that we have to explore. Like there's I bought $150 a ticket. Now I'm not feeling well. I need you to feel okay not coming, cause that's not a good decision. So we've been talking with some of the license houses, us and other theaters about can we stream that performance so that I don't feel good or I don't feel comfortable coming, but I have this ticket.
And then somehow we would pay for two cameras with switching at that show. So you can stay home and watch that live show.
Lacey: [00:20:43] And it would just be a link for that patron.
Mark: [00:20:46] That patron, that performance, this isn't a recording. It just live going on. Equity is actually looking into ways that maybe you can sell tickets to it. For those who don't feel comfortable, that equal the capacity. Because one of the other challenges we're going to run to is capacity, the challenge of our industry is that Broadway, touring, concerts are based on a hundred percent capacity. So how do you deal with it? You know, we're selling season tickets for the Summer.
We have our fingers crossed and our sleeves rolled up to make sure this works. What does that mean?
Lacey: [00:21:13] Sounds like you foresee though that it certainly won't be able to be sold to a hundred percent it won't be permitted or you won't permit it either way. You're not looking at being able to sell 2,800 seats.
Mark: [00:21:24] I don't know. I mean, I'm hoping that the vaccine, but you know, the question will be, when will we know we can. So right now, the way we at other colleagues are planning is planning for now, if it was 20%, 50%, what would that look like? And do the numbers and do the math. And where do you do it? Do you do in a parking lot?
Do you do it in a tent? Do you do it in the building? I mean, I think you've heard right from pretty colleagues. All we do is make alternative plans and throw them away with, and nothing else shows up and we make an alternative. So, you know, I have the plan, that's the exact, what we normally do. And then I have all these other sort of subs, plus we're just trying to keep the lights on and the
Lacey: [00:21:57] Right. So yeah, looking at that. You mentioned before you would lose $6 million of a $12 million budget, what do you cut? What do you not? So that's one question. And then the other one is you mentioned some of your funders. I assume you meant your institutional funders are talking about wanting to create more equity with anti-racism and, and representation and equality.
So are they asking you to do things differently in order to retain your funding? Are they saying they're going to take some of that funding and put it to other purposes?
Mark: [00:22:27] Yeah, to answer that one, both there's a sense that BIPOC organizations have been historically underfunded from certain, certain other organizations of certain size and capacity have the ability to get other funding. Pittsburgh is lucky. We are very foundation rich the Heinz Foundation, the Richard King Mellon Foundation, the BNY Mellon foundation.
There's a lot of great Pittsburgh foundation and they see a really great role as leaders. They recognize that where they put their funding and their priorities actually have an impact on the community. And they've been great support with CLO and they continue to be. And the other thing that makes it great is these arts sort of monoliths that sit aside, they actually are people we talk to like we spend time in rooms, wrestling with questions, which is really great.
There's not a divide in Pittsburgh. As I felt in other places, they're a part of the solution. And they've been part of the solution in many ways.
In the past. One of the things that makes Pittsburgh unique is the cooperation of cultural groups. Many years ago, one of the foundations said, we think you all should work together to create efficiencies. And so out of that, and some funding came a thing we called Shared Services, the Cultural Trust, the CLO, the ballet, Public Theater, the symphony, and the opera, six major organizations all pay into shared services.
We together do the health insurance program, which means there's more volume to do that. We do joint programs, joint box office. All these things are done shared. And so there's been a sense of cooperation from the beginning.
And that came from the foundation community I just did a panel at the National Alliance of Musical Theater Conference about this, because I think that's a model for other communities to look at
Then as you look at moving forward, I think you're going to see more sense of partnership. And that's really what I'm hearing. Where does the larger organization put a hand out or down to lift another organization up? And we've been in conversation with groups because as a white majority company, I'm not going to flip a switch and suddenly become not a white majority company, but I could partner with a non-white majority company and make a difference.
And that's really been the investigation. It's very serious to me that we do this. Pittsburgh's an unusual city, also demographically it's 85% white. It's not a 50 50 city it's comes out of its history as a unionized steel town. And it has some challenges when it comes to diversity and BIPOC cultures.
Although we have the history of it, the Hill District, and August Wilson. So I think we're, we're trying to figure out that is for us. And so for me, a lot of that comes in new work. We had been on a big path already in terms of casting and creative teams. But for me, it's been in the new work area and the cabaret obviously I mentioned, we commissioned NABI Kelly to do this John Lewis show. Most of the writers doing the Songs For a New Year project are of color or women, because my belief is that if I, as a producer, want to hear those stories and I hired those writers to write those stories guarantee you, I'm going to now need a person of color to direct or choreograph their shows.
And the characters in the shows would probably be of color. So I'm kind of, as somebody who's always been a new play person, I'm starting with a writer, what's the story you want to tell? How do we do it? We've made some commitments that are our commissioning money for the next few years.willl all go to BIPOC writers.
The summer season will continue. I mean, look, in terms of its audience base, the shows are majority white shows, but we've found ways to not have to make them that by casting, through hiring directors who see it through a different lens, but until the Broadway shows catch up to us in terms of writing teams, Those shows will continue to be.
So I mean, we've had a lot of discussions about how we do that.
If we pick up a stone and we throw it in the water, that's our show and it creates ripples. And that starts conversation. Conversations, what builds community. Now my goal as a producer is to expand whose stories we're telling, who's telling those stories, which is partly why this sort of artist centered is I need people telling me what stories are not being told, what stories they want to tell and how do I give them the tools to do it.
And the micro commission ideas, giving me a chance to really meet some new people, get to know them, see their work, my belief is there'll be more partnerships. There'll be more invitation for people to participate.
A big discussion we've had with colleagues is the pipeline for BIPOC, not just artists, but administrators and backstage. And how do we get those in? We're going to have several positions open when we come out of this, that we've, you know, we've scaled back our box office or scale back other areas, when we go to staff up, how do we ensure that?
What I think is interesting. And it's putting the arts as well as a leader, as opposed to a follower. And we're making a decision on the world and the people we want to work with in the world we want to be in, and they're not easy conversations.
I think one of the things that I've been trying to do is willing to learn in public, ask the hard questions to put my foot in my mouth and admit to somebody before I say it, that I'm probably gonna say the wrong thing.
As a 50 year old white man who comes from a background of privilege and suburban Dallas and has had really great opportunities because of that.
So now I see my role as an arts leader to open the door and utilize the privilege I've had to make sure that others get those opportunities . And, and I think the hardest thing has been finding the time to do that dreaming because we are, you know, between zoom meetings.
You know, I think we have to take the time to really think.
And so one of the things I've been thinking about over this holiday break is how do I Institute time? Not just in my day, but in my staff's day to dream. So we, you know, in response to the the George Floyd murder and the response to that, we actually instituted among the staff. Out of their workweek, I've given them an hour a week to do their own work on anti-racism. One of my staff members put together an online resource list that we actually add to as we come across articles stories, and they go visit them. We have staff meetings every other week, but in the intervening week, we have a conversation group that is led by whoever wants to do it, to talk about anti-racism in the work.
So we're trying to institutionalize that discussion, not just make it on your own. I'm happy with the turnout but there's more to be done. We've added some anti-racism training. There's more to be done. I've had conversations with the board members of color to see what we can do to expand that representation.
It's not going to be easy, I have to say for me the stories I like are stories that aren't mine . I mean, it's so funny.
Like, am I going to want the suburban white teenager experience on the show? I wannawatch something I haven't seen? Cause what I love finding is the commonalities or the universality and the difference. So to me, that sort of next step go wax philosophical is you were talking earlier about building community. I would like to speak is provide safe intersections where communities can come together.
So it's not about taking a summer season that has an audience is primarily white and getting rid of it and replacing it. It's about expanding that and creating a safe environment where artists of color can tell a story to a white audience or even better a white audience member sitting next to a person of color in the audience, watching the story that they don't understand.
So where are those intersections? Where is that teacher from a different background to a student of a different background? Whereas the two artists coming together, like I said, in the blind date to work together. So one of the things I've been thinking about, and I think in some ways, this idea of establishing community is a goal and I think it's lofty.
As opposed to what can we really do? What I can do is try to create a safe space where you can be yourself. And so it's been a lot of conversations and not enough, I haven't had enough. I mean, calling artists of color, administrators of color and acknowledging my failures as a white male of privilege who has not always seen it
Lacey: [00:29:36] One of the things that has had the greatest impact on me was listening to the Broadway Advocacy Coalition three day summit. One of the days was for BIPOC artists, so I wasn't on it, but the two days that I did listen to, and the idea of a safe space, I feel like that resonates from what I heard from artists of color.
And that that's kind of your bottom line. That's what you're building from. The idea that you're building from seems relevant and like you are listening. And that said, I always say this when I asked this question, which is that we are two white people sitting here having this conversation. I like you have been a very privileged white person.
And so I invite anybody listening, who is an artist of color or a BIPOC person. You know, if you have comments, suggestions if you'd like to point out where we did get it wrong in this conversation, I would love for you to get in touch.
Mark: [00:30:27] I agree. And, and the only way look, I recognize the work I have to do on my own, but I do want to be in conversation. I mean, I agree. I watched, I listened. I stumbled. I think the thing I'm trying to do most and work on personally is to leave space.
I'm used to being a white male in power in the room who's in charge. And I think that has been the biggest thing I've tried to watch. Going into rooms virtual as they are now, and being willing to sit back and wait.
And it's funny cause like some of the leaders, I actually admire the most, the ones who say the least, and then they give that one incisive question or that one incisive statement. A friend of mine talked about, or it's probably a philosophy that exists, but emergent leadership, your ability to be a leader when needed and to be able to be sort of a worker when you're not.
And it's something I'm trying to figure out how to do within even our own staff, like letting someone take the lead. It doesn't mean it has to be me in all the time. That is the work I'm doing because I recognize it really comes from this place of privileged white male and has been a bit lucky. We're also in an interim period where management is changing. It's the hierarchies are being
Lacey: [00:31:28] Yeah. I
Mark: [00:31:29] I like
Lacey: [00:31:29] colleague and mentor and someone I admire Jen Waldman here in New York City, who has from the very beginning of the pandemic said that the hierarchies are gone in this industry by virtue of the pandemic. I don't know how you feel about that, but
Mark: [00:31:43] I think it's interesting, but yes they are, but it's also a balance, right? It's it's, it's funny. We're industry based on collaboration, but we're still an industry that has people investing money that has to, it'll be an interesting balance, right? Because at the end of the day we still have a responsibility.
We still have an audience. We still have to sell tickets. Do I wish that we could be free? Do I wish we could? Every ticket was 20 bucks. The economics don't work. It's one of the things I'm trying to struggle with is I'd love to go to $20 tickets, but on the other hand, we're talking about living wages. No one's making money.
And I think one of the things that we could also spend a lot of time on, and I've done this, and I want to do more of is I think if artists and producers could sit down and explain how this whole industry works, because I know there's a misconception at times, Oh, the producers making all this money.
Well, we're not, you know, it's not like the capitalism where I put my money in and I'm the one that made the investment. It's not that anymore. But understanding how the road works, understanding what the upfront costs are for developing a new piece of how many years it takes and how much money before you ever see the other side shows recouping years later.
And what does that actually mean? One of the things I really would love to see, and this is me speaking as me, I spend a lot of time as producers explaining the Equity contracts, what the actor's actual contract says. How do we get those people to step up, understand their contracts, work with us.
So I think there's some crossover there has to happen because at the end of the day, it still is a business. Not for profit is a tax code, not a business model. We would like to make money, but I think we have to sit and talk with each other so that I can, and I'm happy to do it. I've done it. Like, I don't understand why are you doing this?
Why aren't you spending this on marketing? Well, if I spend that on marketing, then I don't have this money for that, you know? And, and again, and we also, many an actor has become a producer or pushed in and realize what's going on. And then there's the other side, like I've had union stagehands tell me why don't you come to us to help us solve your problem?
The us them problem has often been a challenge. Because we sit in negotiating room, but you know, maybe look, I want to find a way to do this load in more efficiently, let's go to the union and let's figure, but that's a risk. So I think it will be actually to see what the new kind of hierarchy is completely gone.
, but I can see, I can see it in the CLO administration that we've flattened a lot. And I think you have to decide what the role is of an executive producer or a producer to make a hard decision.
But I think we have to learn from each other.
Lacey: [00:34:04] One of the reasons why I wanted this to focus on regional nonprofit theaters, which are, it's kind of saying regional and nonprofit are, interchangeable. In that most regional theaters are nonprofit that this, I think somewhat of a lack of understanding about how these theaters really function.
So that for the actors listening, that we can go in and have our contracts and do our work in these theaters. And what's really going on to make those things come to life. And then of course what's really going on now that everything is, is different. So it really important conversation,
Mark: [00:34:33] I think it is an important conversation. I think that also goes back to the safe space, right? The ability to ask the question without fear of repercussions, especially in a regional non-profit is what is asked of the actor beyond the performance. Like we do ask actors to go promote and do appearances, and we ask them to come to donor events, which I'm not sure that's always explained why that matters. I'm fascinated always by the, and I'm sure I've had my moments where the actors and the designers and the directors, Bruce, you have this sort of disdain for the audience, like they are paying for. You're like, Oh, they didn't understand my show. Well, they paid for it.
Whereas that I think it's about breaking down the walls. And I, you know, when I was at ATF, I initiated conversation, push up conversations with every performance. And I I'm trying to do a little bit of that here. It's harder with the numbers, but how do you put everybody talking together and experiencing the show in a different way?
And when to have the conversation, that's the other challenge. In some ways we should be having these conversations now, which we are. We See You White American Theater and other discussions. Cause often in the heat of the moment is not have that discussion. But I do think there's models to be looked at at how do we come on the other side of this as a model, maybe an industry that needs to be at a a hundred percent capacity in order to break even, does it make sense in any other, I mean, I'm sure you're the same way.
I sit down with friends who run businesses and we talk about that. They're like, I don't get it. Why can't you make money? And then we explain that it's people-centric business. It's custom, everything's artisinal it only happens on one night, you know, from salaries to benefits, everything goes up
Lacey: [00:36:03] Yes.
Mark: [00:36:03] ticket demand does not.
Lacey: [00:36:05] Right. Because if you're selling sneakers online, you can sell them online to anybody in the world. But pre pandemic, if you're selling a ticket to a show, obviously you can only sell as many tickets as the theater will hold. So in and of itself, that is just as a stark difference from an entrepreneurial model.
Mark: [00:36:22] Right. Yeah. I mean, even in the craft brewing or craft food, you can make an inventory you're making a thing. The thing we make is this sort of ephemeral memory. Yeah. And I, but I think we'll have to look at what that is. I know that when we come back, it may not look the same as it did maybe it will be scaled back a bit.
Maybe it'll be different. And I don't know, because at the end of the day, as I said, smaller is better than gone. We do have a responsibility to make sure that this 75 year tradition institution continues what it is and how it responds to the community can change, but I don't think anyone wants to see it go away.
And it's not just us. City Theater, , Pittsburgh Public Theater, Quantum, all the organizations in town that serve different niches. You know, we're all very unique in what we provide. It's fascinating. to me, as I look at the landscape of Pittsburgh and how unique each city is a lot of new and contemporary plays, Front Porch Musicals does socially contemporary musicals.
We do a conservatory of the classics plus new. Quantum does site-specific, like we have roles. And I think that's worked really well. It's just, how do we, what is the other side of this? And, and that's, you know, again, how do you have a conversation with all the constituencies, the audience, the funder, we've talked a lot of funders, the audience, the writers, the actors.
All have a stake in this. I don't know if we've always given them the stake, right, in it from, and I think that's an issue. I mean, writers have felt it, but our actors: have talent will travel. How do we have them invest in the organization. A British organization, I can't remember one of my calls was talking about the idea of how do we, maybe we need to go back to company so that they're employees of, that's not been the model
we've had.
Lacey: [00:38:00] two left in this country, as far as I know.
Mark: [00:38:02] And as I'm watching my friends on Facebook, tell me their health insurance is running out through Equity. And again, I have no answers. These are just questions that keep coming up in wrestling. And I think the hardest part of this as well.
Yes, we have zoom. I feel so isolated doing it. I'd rather be in a room with a sleeves, rolled up in a dry erase board.
Then, you know, and we've done, I did one meeting with staff, senior staff, and we like went to this conference room and we each sat on like the farthest room. But even that we felt better, we'd get up get our drinks and we put our mask back on and go back.
But, but that's, what's so funny is like, we need to reimagine, but we're not in a room or a space.
Lacey: [00:38:39] it's so hard to be creative. You know, I have had my own experiences with that to be creative by yourself. Even on a screen, you're not, I mean, we're, I think we're doing a good job of bouncing ideas here, but, but
Mark: [00:38:51] Yeah. But still not the same. What's the next step, you know? On this break, I've been making a commitment which started today of an hour, a day of just brainstorming and list-making, and try not to edit
Lacey: [00:39:01] Yeah.
Mark: [00:39:01] you know, in this conversation sort of serving that purpose in
Lacey: [00:39:03] Well, I'll give you this recording. So there you go. Then you can write it down.
Mark: [00:39:07] There you go. But it's, you know,
I try to, you know, we were laughing during the break, during the shutdown. I had virtual happy hours with every, with them on every opening night or first rehearsal, depending on how it worked with our schedule. Cause these are the people I was in the trenches with our stage manager, Elaine designer, you know, when you do a show in eight days, including five hours of tech, which is amazing.
But to engage them in what is this next step, but then we also don't know what it is
Lacey: [00:39:32] Well, as you said, you have six different plans for six
Mark: [00:39:36] Hmm. Don't know. And I mean, I, my hope is that the vaccine is moving forward and it will do well, but, you know, it's an interesting, like, just even just the world, like watching people with masks and they're like, is this how, that's the question that I like, is this how we live
Lacey: [00:39:51] Yeah. I just moved into a new building 10 days ago and the, everybody here is exceedingly friendly except that when I see them again, it's hard to recognize anybody because everybody has a mask on. So everybody's saying nice
to meet you and you know, my name and here's the apartment I'm in. And then, you know, I hope that I can retain something curly hair or, you know,
Mark: [00:40:13] , there was a period in the middle where I think things were slowing down a bit and we had a couple people over, like to sit in the backyard, separated out, everybody brought their own food, their own liquor, you know, whatever. And we sat and that's red dried up.
We're like, Oh, You know, I don't go to the office maybe once a week to sign checks, you know, and see the guards. it's been an isolating experience. I thank God. We had this technology, I think back to like my grandmother, you know, my grandfather went through world war to Korea and they didn't talk to each other for months, years.
No, at least I can on Christmas day, you know, still chat with my grandmother. So we're very lucky in that. So I don't want to dismiss that, but the art form, you know, the ability to be in the room.
The ballet in Pittsburgh bought what's called a Sam four 50, which is basically a mobile stage. That's a 53 foot semi that pulls into a parking lot. The front comes down, the top lifts up, the side pops out and it's like this giant stage. So they did a thing called the Open Air Series and they wanted us to participate in one or two.
So we. We asked our students if they wanted to come. So we came up with the idea of our students, the senior level students are going into college and performing arts. Do they want to come sing? What are their solos? Like their college audition song.
It was on a Saturday morning. I forgot how much I missed that. Like I was tearing up hearing kids sing just because it was live. And it was in the room. It's interesting how much we've missed that. Like, I really was moved by these kids singing Pippin or whatever it was they were singing, Millie, but just hearing that. We're built to be in relationship with other people.
One of the things that theater definitely provides is that sitting next to a stranger, having the lights turned out, having a common experience, lights coming up and knowing we all went through it together. We move about in our lives and the same with the actors that we come together.
My mom's joke was it when I was performing, when I got new friends every six weeks. But there is something about that, right? What will change, you know, will auditions happen the way they did or where they all be video from now on.
Lacey: [00:42:00] Which is not an easy thing to do. Trying to give a performance to a computer I'm sure everyone feels that way.
Mark: [00:42:06] You know, but I think it's going to become more real, more regular.
Lacey: [00:42:09] Another skill set.
Mark: [00:42:10] And we've been teaching that, you know, obviously how to do a video and we've had a lot of college professors talk to our students,
In addition to obviously the dreaming we've been doing real planning , there's a group of venues that meet quarterly and we've been working on plans.
Cause one of our thoughts is that we should all do the same thing so that it's a good sequence, good housekeeping seal of approval. All these organizations follow these steps. So you know what you're into.
So there's real work being done because it's going to be, you know, testing and all sorts of things to get back to where we were or to whatever it will be.
Lacey: [00:42:41] There's so much in there. What you said you are incredibly well-informed and I love that you talked about dreaming. Wow. The word that I'm looking for means like well-spoken. And since I can't think of it, that's really funny.
Well, I appreciate that No, it's it's, you know, and I appreciate the opportunity to kind of ramble and, and think about these things and, and to have someone to bounce it off of, you know, it's, we've been talking a lot about, but what's been great about the colleagues
They're in the game with me to get outside, to talk to an artistic director at another theater, or like when I'm at NAMT and recognize people understand it, but you know, let's be hopeful. I mean, the there's a belief that some of the tours will be back on road in the fall that people have found incredible ways to keep busy
The question is are we serving the full audience that we could have. Probably not. Because as I said at the beginning live theater was the first to shut down It'll be the last to come back because of the nature of what we want to do. Terrible quote I've said to someone the other day the magic of theaters happens in the air between audience and performer And unfortunately right now what's it's in the air could possibly kill So, you know, that's that being in the same space.
Yeah, absolutely. I think some people might quibble with that at this point, but I agree with you actually. I think that is the seed
Mark: [00:43:51] I mean back of the caveman, if you're back from the hunt and wanted to say something and acted out the hunt. I believe we'll be back. I believe theater will happen. Look, we've been through this before, the roaring twenties came after the influenza epidemic.
There was amazing creativity and pent-up frustration for being together for being there.
So congratulations on the podcast and in creating it. I think it's an interesting idea to hear. I'll be curious to go listen, to hear what others have said in our position. I appreciate you giving us.
Lacey: [00:44:17] fascinating. I'm very excited to release it. Thank you so much, Mark, for being here
Mark: [00:44:22] All right.
Lacey: [00:44:23] been a pleasure.
Mark: [00:44:25] Thank you.
