Episode 5: Dina Janis and the Dorset Theatre Festival
Lacey: [00:00:00] So I'm here with Dina Janis today. I'm so pleased to have the opportunity to talk to you, to meet you, to see your face on the zoom. Thank you for being here today.
Dina: [00:00:10] Thank you.
Lacey: [00:00:10] You are the artistic director at the Dorset Theater Festival. One of my favorite theaters up in Dorset, Vermont , with which I have a personal connection.
So I'm doubly excited. I'd love to hear, and our listeners would love to hear about Dorset Theater Festival, your mission, the community that you serve, the types of works that you gravitate toward, you know, and, and your work there.
Dina: [00:00:32] The festival is in its 45th year. I think. I've been involved for the past 11 years and what we always say, we try to produce theater that matters, , kind of drawn from the classic and new contemporary canon. I think for me, I feel like what we try or aim to be is a kind of Vermont public theater, a place in which the community feels a real sense of ownership and agency, that we're committed to being accessible to everyone in the community. We also create community in the kind of artistic people that we have developed and grown as our own little sort of Dorset family over the past 12 years. So that's, you know, really a lot of playwrights and actors and designers and technicians and everything you can think of in the theater, apprentices, uh, All of the above, really coming from all over the country.
A lot of the artistic community that we host and have grown is New York city-based, but not completely. I mean, people really come from all over. So for us, that sense of centering the artist, centering the community, being accessible and engaging the community is just something that's really primary for us.
For me, I always just admired Joe Papp immensely and really loved The Public Theater's model and what they thought a theater is in a community. And we, we, sometimes we say, we believe that theater should be like the kitchen table of the community, where everyone can kind of come together and discuss, argue, you know, laugh.
And I feel like that is sort of what we've tried to be in the community here. And that's really been a goal.
Lacey: [00:02:16] I love so many things about what you just said. I wrote some of them down, especially Vermont public theater. That just really resonates for me. But everything that you said hits to me what the definitions of a regional theater are and how you serve the community. So I just think that's beautiful.
Can you give me a general idea of how the community has responded over the years?
Dina: [00:02:39] Yeah, well, it's been really good, interesting for me actually coming from New York. So the Festival has a really amazing history. It's been here for many decades and was always a very highly regarded high level, you know, sort of traditional summer stock type of theater. And about 20 something years ago, they raised so much money, you know, millions of dollars.
And they expanded the Playhouse, which was really honestly, three barns put together by the locals, which is really a public theater idea. If you think about it,
Lacey: [00:03:15] They were very nice barns though. I have to
Dina: [00:03:17] Yeah. And when they, and what they did was they raised all this money to renovate the theater to expand it. So it went from one around a hundred seats to 300 and they put in, you know, scene shops, but they actually worked hard to keep the actual old barns, both externally and also internally, um, the actual theater space itself used a lot of the old, old barn wood and that kind of thing. So it has that like very authentic character. But at that time in this plan for expansion was right when Jill Charles who had run it for so long with John Nassavera. And she passed away kind of quickly from cancer. And so they kind of had this amazing space, which was intended then to become more of a regional attraction or regional contender, um, with the Berkshire theaters and upstate New York theaters. And they really didn't have a plan in place for that.
So. What happened was they went from 100 to 300 seats, lost their leadership, and then really struggled. By the time I got involved, there really were maybe 30 or 40 people in the house on a regular basis. In a 300 seat theater. So it's very, you know, uncomfortable for people. And so weirdly when I came in... a playwright, Theresa Rebeck had kind of connected me to the festival.
I lived in Dorset, so I knew them, but when they were looking for leadership, I saw a lot of opportunities for re-imagining what kinds of programming we could do, because there was really literally nothing to lose. There was no audience to lose, so
Lacey: [00:04:54] that's kind of my favorite phrase lately.
There's nothing to lose. We have nothing to lose
Dina: [00:05:00] there really wasn't, you know, they had, uh, done for years, great productions of Agatha Christie and Sherlock Holmes and, you know, Alan Ackburn and some new work, but mostly very sort of traditional canon and.
That was important. So I try to continue some of that material, but we began to really bring in new canon, new, new play premieres, work that had maybe been hugely successful in New York the year before and bringing in new plays, the more contemporary voices, which along with them came a different kind of artist, different artists that were interested in coming up and working on the plays because they were premieres and things like that. So that changed a lot. I mean, you know, we really began to become much more invested in new play development. We started doing a lot of retreats and working with a lot of different companies and organizations in New York and elsewhere that do a lot of that kind of work.
And our focus really shifted much more in the direction of new play development and premiers and that's remained true. But what was exciting to me was the audiences that we began to grow really just began to get excited about the new content that they weren't familiar with, but enjoyed. And so once that happened, they would begin to come back and try all the new things that we were putting up in the theater.
So that audience that we were struggling with when I first came on, we'd really probably tripled if not more, definitely more actually, now that I'm thinking about it. So it's, you know, grown with both the traditional audience that the festival has had, but also a lot of new audience that came in with a lot of the new programming we initiate.
So that's been a big change and it's been exciting to, to see the audience embrace those kinds of plays, Superior Donuts and Outside Mulingar and, you know, Intimate Apparel and, you know, new voices, more diverse voices that really bring up a lot of the issues and, and conversations of now. And that.
I think that's been really, really great.
Lacey: [00:07:06] Tell me, if you agree in speaking with a variety of different people and having grown up near Dorset and, kind of aware of, of what regional theater has been like over the years, and the types of things that tend to be represented. It seems like a lot of theaters are discovering that regional audiences will go with you if you present new challenging things and, you know, going against the older perception that everybody just wants to see Oklahoma, which there's nothing wrong with Oklahoma. I love Oklahoma, but you know,
Dina: [00:07:38] Well, I that's right. I mean, I feel like, gosh, our whole country thinks of either or on such a binary level. And I remember coming on and people saying, you know, you can't do anything with swear words in it because our audiences will hate it. And you, you must do this and you must do that.
And I was thinking to myself, okay, Breaking Bad is the number one. Right now, like everyone they're talking about as at home, watching Breaking Bad for God's sake, you know, like really? So I just thought let's just push this a little and see what happens. And I think people, yeah, under estimate what audiences are going to be interested in right now, you know?
That was so true then. And I think in some ways it's interesting how true that is right now, kind of in this COVID moment also, you
Lacey: [00:08:29] Well, that is such a great transition. Um, because of course we want to talk about 2020, and now 2021, what, but what happened in 2020? You know, some of this show is intended to be a time capsule a recounting for, for various places. What were you doing in March of 2020?
How did you handle it? What, what were the decisions you had to make?
Dina: [00:08:54] Yeah. I mean, it was look, you know, the whole theater world was reeling at that point. And I was, uh, I teach at Bennington college. So, you know, I can remember early on, there's a wonderful playwright, Cheri Kramer, who actually has a home, in Dorset and teaches on the faculty at Bennington. When we started up in the spring, she was like, There's no point in doing auditions, you guys, because there's this thing called COVID and everyone's going to get sent home soon.
And we were like, Oh, Sherry, that's crazy. You know, and sure enough, like bang there we all were. And for us, we do a lot of year round developmental work. We have a women's artists writers group that meets regularly in the city and year round. But our season, our main producing season is June July and August.
So we were about to announce our season. And when this started happening, right away we began to talk and dialogue with other arts leaders in this region, just taking the pulse of what people were thinking. And it became clear to us that we really didn't have any choice but to cancel the season for the summer, because for us, you know, we bring in 80 people from outside, from all across the country.
So even just thinking about the safety for all of those people, it became clear that there would be no possible way to feel confident that you could do anything really safely, not to mention that the laws and rules were against all of that anyway. So. You know, at that point we just made the call and it was very painful.
I mean, it was really hard. We had to call everyone we had already contracted for the summer and, you know, I think what was painful about it was obviously people understood, but I can remember calling a director and letting her know that the production was, you know, going to have to be postponed or canceled.
And I was like the sixth job in that two or three days that had been canceled. So she was actually looking for up to two year forward period where she had literally no work. And these are top people. I mean, these are people who are really prominent people. And so it was just difficult. I think the whole industry just was in shock that this was a real and had no sense of how long this would last.
And we just kind of started taking it one foot in front of the other after that. But we did cancel early enough that we didn't lose a lot of money. I felt so badly for people who were literally in previews and about to open something that all of that investment had been made.
And they lost all of that because of COVID shutting them down while they were in process. So in that sense, I felt we were lucky not to have been in that position, but yeah, it was hard and we began to sort of try to think about one, how do we survive? How do we apply for every possible COVID relief?
You know, arts funding we can get? My goal was to make sure that I didn't have to let go of the year-round staff that we have. And so we did a lot of that kind of stuff. Initially, And then we started thinking, once we could see that we were a little stable, it was like, well, okay. So what can we make?
How can we support artists directly? How can we find ways of continuing to serve our community at this time? And so we just began to kind of think in new ways about what that might look like and where our priorities would live for this past year. You know, we, we just made decisions. Like we decided to maintain, we do a young playwrights program and a wonderful playwright actress.
Heidi Armbruster was running that for us. And we just went virtual and offered it to at the time the local educators who were reeling that we thought we were reeling try being an elementary school teacher or a, you know, those folks are so heroic in my opinion, because they got families and kids through that first few months.
And I don't know how unexpectedly as
Lacey: [00:12:56] Right. No preparation.
Dina: [00:12:57] No preparation, but they were very grateful for the fact that we had this free online digital program that would take up some little hours of the day that their students could participate in. So we kept that going. Our women's artist writers group started meeting three times a week and really like actually became so much more engaged because they were reeling and having each other was a great support system and they began churning out lots of new content and did some digital programming that we released on zoom. And, you know, on YouTube. We were lucky because the year before we had been given a very large multi-year grant, which was designed to help us begin our own commissioning and fellowship program.
And so we had that funding, which was separate from our regular funding, which allowed us to bring on a resident artist, Jade King Carol is a wonderful director, begin to really read and seek out our first fellows and our first commissions. So we were able to invest in artists directlythrough that program, which was really great.
And then we really just, started reinventing, you know, we started doing more commissioning. We commissioned two radio plays, one by Theresa Rebeck and one by Chisa Hutchison. And we're now about to record those
Lacey: [00:14:22] Oh, I was going to ask are they, are they available yet?
Dina: [00:14:25] Yeah, they've written them and we're, you know, casting right now and I'm in the process of recording them.
But for me, I like preferred audio than the idea of zoom theater. Though I must say I've been impressed with a lot of the stuff people are doing now. I just, I've always loved radio theater and audio since I was a kid and listening to BBC radio and things like that. So we went in that direction and, you know, just continued to, just to try to support artists , the women in our writer's group, a lot of them had full length plays that they couldn't really share within their meeting structure. So we began to just host full zoom readings for them and were able to pay actors then to do the readings. So we tried to find every way we could to take our resources and focus them on the humans who actually are the theater, you know,
Lacey: [00:15:18] Right. Just want to back up for a second to radio theater. Had Dorset engaged in radio theater before, or was that, um, something that came up because of COVID there's something refreshing about it I think. Do you have plans to continue it moving forward? Is that
Dina: [00:15:34] Yeah, we, we never did it before. It came up as a response to thinking about creative ways that we could make work. And I think for us it's the, the idea would be to keep it going. The zoom theater we could create would be stuff that we would have created and probably gotten out there and never wanted to see again, not really, but you know what I mean?
The radio stuff or audio theater to me would be something we could keep that would become a canon that we could build on and do more of in the future and really use it as a way of being able to put content out there that's really accessible to all different kinds of people in our case, we're putting it out there for free.
So it's. You know, really another way of satisfying our mission of accessibility as an organization also.
Lacey: [00:16:22] Yeah, definitely.
Dina: [00:16:23] So I'm hoping that's the beginning of a new, a new wing we have, I think we're called Stage Free and we're hoping this first two plays of our stage free version of theater, you
Lacey: [00:16:36] That's great. I love that title. What just popped into my head is everything old is new again.
Dina: [00:16:41] Totally. And it's taking off like, I mean this year, my gosh, the world of podcasts.
Audio theater. I mean, many theaters are doing audio plays and I love it. Well, you know, cause you do this, but it's when you're a listener, your theater space is in your mind and you can imagine anything. So for the playwrights, they felt so excited because you know, you can write the play where you're in the spaceship going to the moon or, you know, there's a symphony orchestra or an ocean, you know, Because your imagination is limitless in that form.
So that was exciting for those playwrights to be able to write for. And just generally, there's an intimacy that I love in listening. I've always just personally loved that. And so I think that feeling of connection can still happen in a way that's interesting in an audio play.
Lacey: [00:17:34] And when will those be available?
Dina: [00:17:36] We're hoping by in the next couple months.
So we're, we're about to record them and then go into post production and then we'll be just posting them right out. So I think our goal is April May for actual release. They'll start our summer season actually.
Lacey: [00:17:52] Ah, once again, you created the perfect transition because now that we are in 2021, I think we're all looking forward with hope and maybe some trepidation because we, of course, we don't know exactly what's going to happen, but how are you planning for the future and where do you look for guidance or inspiration about what's coming next?
And since you said you generally have your season just in the summer, right? What are you doing at this point to look at that?
Dina: [00:18:21] Well, one thing that has been extremely helpful is that in this kind of pause, a lot of theater people I know who I have been calling for a long time, have had the time to, to talk deeply, to think deeply. I started a conversation early, like maybe March, February, or March with a director who was someone I really admired and worked with at the festival, Jade King Carol.
And we just started talking all lot every week and kind of regularly. And what I was always thinking about was like, you know, well, when you're producing theater in America, you know, it's this hybrid of you're a nonprofit, but you're also. In a basically commercial model, right. That's been unfortunately true for awhile.
So you're always trying to keep your doors open. So in this moment of pause, you know, I, I tried to allow myself to think a lot about what, of what we're doing and have been doing, do we want to keep doing, and what do we want to leave by the side of the road, in this moment, in this world, with the issues that the world is facing on so many levels, let alone COVID.
What matters. And then let's try to build forward on that because there's nothing, like I said earlier, nothing to be lost. Like there's no revenue to be made. You might as well actually think about this now in a way that's different. And I think a lot of theater folks, again, having conversations like that and that artistic dialogue, I think was something that was really necessary and very rarely possible with people sort of always having to keep themselves above a waterline and producing. So I feel like that was actually weirdly a benefit. And out of that, we just began to sort of be more clear about what our priorities are, what we really want to do, and try to carve away a lot of the stuff that we were doing by default by, well, this is where it's always been done.
So we'll continue to do it this way. I think that's actually been really helpful.
Lacey: [00:20:24] Can you give me an example of something that you've decided to leave by the wayside?
Dina: [00:20:29] Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's always been important to me for instance, to center the artist, to create an organization where artists are actually at the table, not leadership is ruling the roost. And then the artists are told what to do or sort of hired play by play, but don't feel like they have a vested interest in the community or the decisions the community makes.
And one of the reasons why that happens is just simply because it's just having time and you're caught up trying to just get from A to B. And I feel for me, I thought, well, one thing I want to try to do is really shift back. Like if you want to center the artist, prioritize that first and the other things, second, third, and fourth instead of the other way around.
And so it's not so much about what I'm doing a lot differently, but more about the ordering of priorities. that makes sense. You know, we've always wanted to be accessible to the community. Early on, we started a program called Giving Back Program, which has been underwriting for 10 years, free tickets to groups in the community that give a lot to the community.
So we've always underwritten tickets for farmers and volunteer firefighters and first responders and Vermont National Guard and, you know, special needs like different communities. That we've given free tickets to for 10 years now, but always kind of after we'd done our marketing for the show, we'd reach out to them and let them know they could come.
So it's sort of more about really prioritizing how important it is to us to create those access points and putting our resources towards staffing that allows us to really do that outreach deeply rather than simply superficially or as best we can, I guess is the way I would describe our approach.
And you know, I think that's different. So it's, kind of reprioritizing. And that's an example of what I'm getting at. Thinking about a summer season in which you're already trying to avoid that $60 price point. And factor in your thinking from the get-go that you want everyone in town and in the area and in the region to be able to come.
And how do you actually do that and how do you financially accomplish that and what kind of support do you need to be able to do that? Just focusing my attention on our, I should say our attention as an organization on those values. Really. So that's, I think that's more, the way it has manifest is sort of a reordering of what we want to do and then how to do it.
Lacey: [00:23:08] Something that you said, well, two things, one when you said center the artist. And the first thing that I thought of was like, so the artist can feel centered as in the, like, breathe in, breathe out. I am centered. And then I realized you meant it as at the center of the experience or the organization or the production, but really it, I think you mean both.
So that's really kind of
Dina: [00:23:32] Well, yeah, in a way it's both, but exactly, because I think. One leads to the other, hopefully. Um, but yeah, it's the idea, you know, you're doing new plays and we had this commissioning and fellowship program, which, you know, we, we began to try to design that program. What is the way we want to have a commissioning and fellowship program?
And we really agreed and have moved forward in a way that's not. We want an ownership of a play. It's going to artists who we really admire and saying, we are actually interested in supporting you in your work. What do you need so that the commission or fellowship is designed with them instead of sort of a prescriptive structure, which leads to us having the rights to this premiere or that premiere, and a sense of ownership over the property of the play, where we really try to shift it more on really investing in the artist and trusting that authentic relationships will grow that way. Or not. And that the authenticity is what matters to us.
So, you know, I feel like that that's an example of thinking about actors the same way. I'm an actor. I started out as an actor, so I love actors. Right. And as a director, I I'm an actors director, but I would always ask all the actors that came, you know, every summer and at the end of their show, when we finally had a moment to like, have a glass of wine or something would be always like, please do me a favor and let me know if there's ever been anything you really want to work on.
And everyone will be like, Oh, that's so nice that you're even asking me, blah, blah, blah. But no one would ever actually. Well, it, they thought it was like something, I was just casually throwing out there at a cocktail party, but it wasn't, it was like actors are some of the smartest, most interesting people they're approached by millions of different playwrights.
They have their own ability to have agency in forming the theater. I mean, my gosh Shakespeare was an actor. And I kind of grew up in Steppenwolf Theater when I was a kid and then Labyrinth in New York, which is very much that way. It's not compartmentalizing people in the company and really allowing everyone to feel a sense of, well, this is a moment where I can take a leadership role.
I have an idea I'd like to try to do and creating an organization that makes it possible for people to feel like they can do that with you, that you're actually asking them to contribute in that way.
Lacey: [00:26:05] Yeah, I think there are two parallel tracks in that way in the industry. There are the theaters, like the ones you've mentioned and like Dorset, where actors are explicitly given agency and empowerment. And then I think there are still a lot of places. And I don't know where, I don't know if it comes from theater programs or it comes from casting or it comes from the sense of scarcity of jobs or some combination, but the sense of disempowerment and like I'm the final cog in the wheel.
And I just sort of slot in and then slot back out, you know? And I think there's still so much of that. So
it's exciting that you are taking that on. So specifically yeah.
Dina: [00:26:43] We're trying. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's an old model. Interesting, because I teach at Bennington College and Bennington is kind of, the epicenter always has been of, shared governance and, you know, the students have equal say in the classroom and it's all sounds marvelous and it is marvelous.
But in order to make a decision about something that amount of time that's involved in letting everyone have a voice is so much longer, which is why that people avoid that it's more work, but the benefit of that is so deeply impactful, but you have to be able to commit your time and resources, understanding that it's going to mean things will take longer.
Lacey: [00:27:29] Right, which is something that's definitely not the trend in theater. Let's let's have longer rehearsals, you know,
Dina: [00:27:37] yeah. I mean, I remember the first time I directed a production at the Festival. I did a production of The Whipping Man by Matthew Lopez. And it was like, after about three days, I was like, who came up with this rehearsal schedule? You know, you have two weeks and then you're in tech. Like what maniac came up with this idea, you know?
And then I realized, well, I'm the maniac. Who came up with this idea? Yeah. The top time is so hard to find in theater.
Lacey: [00:28:03] That makes me think about something else you said, which was about the ticket price. You said something about a $60 price point for your tickets and, in conjunction with having a program that underwrites all these free tickets for all these great groups in your community. And I'm curious. You said you didn't lose a lot of money because you hadn't really gone into your summer season yet, but I'm curious how you foresee with, you know, a lot of people have changed circumstances in terms of being able to pay for a ticket.
And I don't know if other sources of funding for you or drawing back or, you know, also similarly strapped with their endowments. What do you foresee going forward? Is that something you're thinking about? Are you worried about it? Okay.
Dina: [00:28:43] Sure. You know, we were planning on doing a season this summer in-person out doors, which we just felt would be safer in that people will probably feel more comfortable and excited about being outside, outside than indoors. And unfortunately, for us, the Playhouse in all of its lovely charm, the ventilation system is horrible, you know, the remediation you would need to manage in it, bringing people in doors to that space would just be really complicated. And I'm not sure I would feel safe. That was safe enough, really. So we just started thinking earlier about outdoors. And we started talking to people who had done out, you know, Berkshire theater group bravely did Godspell us somewhere outside in it.
They, again, this is where the theater tribe is so wonderful because all, those kinds of companies just were happy to talk to us and give us advice. So thinking forward on that, the first time we sort of sat down and budgeted out all the, you know, three times a week COVID tests and actors have to be there weeks early for quarantining and just the COVID related expenses of doing anything in person right now are incredible.
I mean, they're just mindblowing. So for at least this summer, the way we're thinking about it is there's zero revenue to be made is about making art and keeping the art alive. We were lucky to get a lot of support through the state and federal government, a lot of local businesses and donors it's actually been inspiring how generous people have been reaching out to us, which has been quite an honor just seeing what they can do. So I feel like our goal is to just be able to break even to be able to do work and an outdoor safe space where people can come together. Our own little like Delacourte theater, you know,
yeah. Thinking about that in the way that, you know, everyone is welcome, anyone is welcome. If you try to find an access point that anyone can do and lots of ways to come, if even that is a struggle. So that's kind of what our plan is for the summer. I'd like to say we're thinking forward to the following year, but we're, we're really not.
Lacey: [00:31:00] One thing at a time. Uh, another theater that I've spoken to was telling me about continuing to offer their live productions in some way digitally, because paraphrasing here, and maybe putting my own spin on it, but because of this kind of increased recognition that there are people who can't come for a variety of reasons, whether because they're, very immunocompromised and they'll still be nervous or, or because they've always had accessibility concerns.
Dina: [00:31:29] right. Yes. I mean, I think that that's one of the really amazing things about COVID is yes, as people were forced to do all this digital programming because of the way the industry works, mostly all of that had to be offered up for free. So all of a sudden, you know, you're bridging this access gap.
That's very powerful. And you're also able to engage audiences that could never have come to your shows, whether it's because there in another state or far away, or really wouldn't necessarily think I'm going to spend $50 tonight on a play. That's an opportunity that I think theaters have learned from, which is how do you keep the spirit of that?
Like I said, what do you keep? And what do you leave by the side of the road? And it's true for that as well. It's like, for instance, in our summer, we're planning on doing like a good video, capture of whatever plays we end up doing so that we can continue to release that on-line for people who can't come to the actual physical space for whatever reason, you know, I think that's really smart. And I think there's this sort of new version of filming theater. That's not just like every show you do. You have to do an archival video of, and it's usually some kid in the balcony with a really bad camera just sticking it in one shot and you know, and nobody really wants to watch that, you don't want to make theater into a movie, but there's a way to have a multi-camera capture, which allows the play to still be a play, but you're capturing it a little better. And so if you're watching it later, it's actually getting the energy of the drama,
and the play, but not quite as rough as a, just straight up archival video. So that I see a lot of theaters doing that now. And I think that's going to be a really interesting tool, kind of like what the mat, you know, those livestreams of opera and things, you know, it means that people anywhere can for free or very little money, watch some of the greatest opera in the world with the most incredible designers and, you know, singers and directors and music.
And symphonies without needing to spend,
Lacey: [00:33:41] A hundred dollars. Yeah. I wish there's also several times there've been musicals that they've captured in, I don't know how many cameras, but more than one. And then actually shown in movie theaters in particular, there was a London production of Merrily We Roll Along. That was phenomenal and I'd never seen a full production of Merrily We Roll Along because at that point, this was a number of years ago. There hadn't been a revival and it was so exciting, even, even though it was in a movie theater, it was fantastic. So, you know, I never would have been in London to see it, so yeah.
Dina: [00:34:13] That's right. There's a lot of really positive things that I think, you know, people have discovered and also, you know, you can tape something and put it on a YouTube as a live event. And even though it's been pre-taped, people are on the chat. You know, it's a live premiere. There's a sense of an audience that you're a part of.
Nothing will ever be the same as being in a room with people together or watching a play. But you do the best you can in creating community
that way.
Lacey: [00:34:45] It's still a gathering. Yeah. It's so fascinating how this terrible event of, of a worldwide pandemic has opened the doors in ways that, you know, I think people in the theater community have talked about for other reasons of accessibility, but it's live, everybody's supposed to gather live.
You know, we sort of get stuck on that. And maybe for good reason, I do think that is the heart of it, but maybe it isn't for everybody all the time. And then, and then we keep, this art form vibrant. I really think that gets at. The kind of systemic problem of accessibility, potentially it gets at that.
And you know, we have some other systemic issues in theater that have become very apparent in the past year. So I wanted to ask you about the protests against police brutality in 2020, the perception. That that increased people's awareness, but has it, and in what way will we, will we see that awareness put into practice hopefully as we go back into theaters.
So I'm curious what Dorset's reaction and to that was, what do you hope the future holds for that? You mentioned that you've been able to take space and time to think and talk. And so I'm curious how that has worked into your conversations. And I just want to say as a preamble to that, that I am aware that we are two white women having this conversation.
And I like to say that, um, I may stumble, I may say the wrong thing. I hope that people who are listening will, will let me know if something that I say causes an effect that I didn't intend. Yeah.
Dina: [00:36:16] Yeah, that's so great that you're, that you're putting that out there because I think that's the most important thing is learning how to break down the systems that you're a part of that are white privilege systems. Is not going to be one easy road forward. You have to be willing to be in the uncomfort discomfort of many mistakes that you are making have made will make so I think that's so great that you just framed that.
Yeah, for us, it's something I think about so much that I'm not sure even where to begin. There's a, a large organization, TCG, Theater Communications Group, and I guess maybe four years ago, was it Doris Duke or the Mellon Foundation? Underwrote a EDI or Equity Diversity Inclusion initiative. And for every year they developed a new cohort of artistic leaders from theaters across the country
so the third cohort was a cohort that I was invited to be in because I had expressed a real interest in this issue, especially for me, it's such an interesting issue to be grappling with in what is the second whitest state in the union with really very little diversity, a huge amount of denial about its own racial issues and lack of racial equity and justice.
And so I feel like being a theater director and artist and producer, who's bringing artists from all over the country. You know, everyone thinks of Vermont as Bernie Sanders and Ben and Jerry's. But it's also a very rural state that has its own economic, incredibly economically stratified. There are people with the most expensive second homes from Boston and New York in the world in Dorset
and one town over 70% of the kids are on subsidized meals. So you have this kind of environment and it's so dominantly white and it always has been. It's interesting because I began to think like, well, you know, we were bringing in, colleagues of mine and friends of mine plays by BIPOC writers, artists, a lot of different kinds of diversity in our staff and artists community.
And I think I did all that without being intentional enough about how to really think about what they were experiencing when they were here. So it just within the community, like I said, Vermont is Ben andJerry's and Bernie, but there's tons of microaggression here. There are the guys with the Confederate flags on the back of their truck at the farmer's market that show up, what do we, as an organization need to do to make sure that we're really supporting the people who are here of color when they come to, to work in Vermont. And then also, how do we engage the community around those kinds of deeper conversations and find a way of having that engagement.
So I think that that's one thing that I've been thinking a lot about. I mean, I think the whole situation with George Floyd was so deeply just. So overwhelming and intense and horrifying, but not necessarily new, but it became such a, a reckoning moment, which is great. One of the things that that prompted for me was, you know, I tend to think of myself as a new Yorker.
So when I get engaged politically, which I am pretty politically engaged, I get engaged on a national level generally. Right. I'll go to the March on Washington or in New York, or, you know, and I began to think about it like, okay, now hold on. If you really are serious about taking real action, then you need to find the local organizations and people who are really trying to address this in Vermont, because you know, the argument is, well, Vermont has no racial problem.
Which is of course crazy. I would argue that it's exactly because of the demographics of Vermont, that it is so important that we do have that engagement around this subject. It's like more important here maybe than in many places. And the opportunity is also huge
being able to really think about this stuff in a way that changes these dynamics. There were a lot of organizations that were working in kind of racial justice models from all different parts of the state. And after that people really began to do very large convenings. Organizations that had never really been in great dialogue with each other suddenly were doing these like zoom meetings where hundreds of people were on.
And it was a really empowering opportunity to get to know the organizations that one could partner with volunteer for, or work with. So both personally that was really impactful, but also institutionally, we began to try to figure out. How can we really partner with organizations? Walking, the walk, not just talking the talk unraveling some of the sort of gatekeeping privileged structures that exist in our, in our model.
And we're like babies in the, in the progress we're making it's infant steps, but I think that's definitely something that has just become so important in the way we're thinking about what role we can have. In this moment and why it's so important that we don't remain silent and avoid our own complicity in the, in the problems that exist in theater and in our community and in Southern Vermont and in New England and you know,
in the whole country.
Lacey: [00:42:02] Yeah, well, just went like, okay, my hands just went like, like a big explosion because it goes from the hyper local of your theater to the world. You just said. Something that I, if I may, I'm going to summarize because it was so beautiful, you basically laid out a four prong approach to the issue, which was, you started with the content of the shows and the people who, you know, the diversity of the people who write them and the people who direct them.
Then you, you kind of expanded it to the participants, the people who come to work on these pieces and their experience of being there. So that's kind of the next level. And then you expanded it to the perception in your local community and working with them. And then you expanded at one more time to the local or state organizations that you can work with, who are interested in these issues as well.
So from the community that. May not be so aware of these issues and you want to engage them in dialogue too. Also the community that is aware that you want to connect with. So you literally just laid out a four prong approach for how to start to tackle some of these issues.
Dina: [00:43:17] Yeah. I mean, I think it's a collaborative effort and you know, one of the things that I think is a falsity that in Vermont, people are comfortable maintaining is that, well, this is, you know, we don't have a. Any kind of racial problem here, because, you know, we have such a small population of, of BIPOC people.
You know what I really think that's total nonsense. I mean, one of the things that I I've been really excited to begin to understand and discover are the communities. I mean, this is a fallacy, there are so many, uh, different immigrant populations. In Vermont, percentage wise, it's the second whitest state in the union.
But the idea that, that there's no issue there, that people are heading up and struggling with this look, I don't mean to get political, but you know, over this past four years, people that have a lot of racial hatred or have a lot of bias have been so emboldened in a way they're so much more out front and that's.
Can be frightening, but it's also a real opportunity to be able to actually find a way to have conversations around that because people aren't hiding their opinions as much as they were, or they had those opinions, they had those biases, but they were really being politically correct because they felt very much in a minority.
And that, that has changed. Uh,
Lacey: [00:44:42] Yeah. You also made me think when you talk about Vermont, that just because people in the state who are mostly white may not actually interface with a BIPOC person, so may not actually cause direct harm to a BIPOC person, that doesn't mean that they're not having all of those thoughts and biases and it's not coming out in other ways, whether it's on social media or just in conversations with other white people.
So you just made me think about the extent of the opportunity, regardless of, you know, a person, a farmer who lives basically isolated from any people who don't look like him doesn't mean there isn't a problem.
Dina: [00:45:24] Yeah, exactly. You know, w the impact of state like Vermont has on the national discourse is really huge. And the state you know, to be honest, the state has been trying to tackle these issues for a few years now, beginning to really, you know, appoint commissions and, and.
Invest in various education and, dialogues and groups that are really trying to get at this in the state and look at the equity diversity issues here. And certainly it's not like there's no, no activity or dialogue going on around this. There is. So I think it's just making sure you're showing up for it.
You know, that's kind of maybe how I think about it. Yeah. And you know, you have to look at what you need to change in your own structures and just be open to learn and not get stuck in the defensive.
Lacey: [00:46:17] It's very hard. And I think some people do a better job than others, and hopefully more people are becoming more aware of their defensive newness, you know, as we move forward, I'd love to just know what's bringing you joy right now in this trying time.
Dina: [00:46:32] personally. I, I always think, and I don't just say this sort of by rote, but my family is huge for me, I'm a mother and a wife and, you know, sister, and so that's one thing that's just, I'm very grateful for it. But I think for me, that incredible, adversity that people have been dealing with in the arts, in my theater community, in our country, the trauma of COVID emotional, psychological, and physical trauma of, of COVID.
I must say that there are days where I feel so inspired by just how willing people are to try to make things better, to fight for it, to get better. Just yesterday, I took a very good friend. Who's a brilliant actress. And I went and showed her husband and her and her son and their dog this snowed out field in the middle of nowhere where we're planning on building a theater, you know, there we were immediately, you know, acting, acting in the field, and I thought, well, this human spirit of goodness of love of resilience.
I think for me, I just never will ever take for granted how important those things are and how powerful they actually are. And it, isn't easy to have that sense of faith in that because things have been so brutal and so despairing, but what's gotten me through and been inspiring is just empathy and love that people really have for each other.
And the way in which they worked their butts off to try to, to, to tackle the challenges we're in right now. And I have a lot of faith that well, most people really have in their hearts. Is that, I mean, for the theater, I think no one will ever take for granted again, the luxury of being able to be together in a theater with each other and a live audience and alive performer on the stage, the moment we can do that is just going to be just so incredibly powerful. And I do believe that people don't take it for granted anymore at all. And, and I know I
don't. Yeah. So I don't know if that answered your question, but. Um, I'm inspired by the resilience.
You know, when you think about teachers and nurses and doctors and theater people finding the most crazy ways of continuing to do stuff, the determination to continue to continue to do that, the human thing. I think that's really something we're going to see the impact of that when things do get a little easier, which hopefully.
Lacey: [00:49:07] Yeah. Cause if people have that kind of intention and drive, now, when you can't do anything without a mask and you can't gather and you can't talk in person, can you imagine how that will manifest when the brakes come off, you
Dina: [00:49:23] Yeah, that's right. And hopefully we'll have a deep and long memory about what that means. And, you know, not just go back to same old, same old, there's so many equity issues that have been revealed in these times. And clearly there's tons of work to be done. And that hopefully is something people are committed to and stick with and not just trend out of
Lacey: [00:49:45] Yeah, I think things of this magnitude do stick with people. I don't just 9/11 popped into my head and, and thinking about what New York felt like to me before and after New York was never so kind and friendly as it was for many years after 9/11 the vibe was so different. You know, I think these types of things, it does shift something for people.
Dina: [00:50:07] Yeah. And I think that, you know, this is hit every family on so many levels, every generation. It's .
Lacey: [00:50:18] Wow. So true, Dina, thank you so much. This was
Dina: [00:50:21] Thank you. I am grateful for just being asked to think out loud. It's helpful to me, actually. I sometimes don't understand what it is that I'm thinking until someone asks me what I'm thinking. So Thank you!
